The Vintage Bus Project

This page is where I'll document the progress on my latest huge project. I plan to eventually sell my current bus (a 1997 40' Prevost Motorcoach) and transition into living on a vintage motorcoach that was designed in the 1940's (similar to the one above). I'll use this page to document my progress and attempt to free my mind from feeling that it needs to keep track of all this info.

Tip: If you don't feel like reading an extremely long post, then just scan the headings. 

Why the change?

My current bus (shown above) works really well for me in general. But, as with most things, you learn a lot in the first 18 months of something (a job, place to live, lifestyle change, etc.) and can usually come up with a more ideal setup after having time to think about it. I've lived in my current bus since March 17th of 2006. That means that I've had more than enough time to formulate a more ideal living setup. Let's start exploring the reason for desiring a change by looking at the problems with my current setup:

1) Electrical Thirst

My main complaint about my current setup has to do with my bus's reliance on electricity. I live in what's known as an all electric coach. That means that it relies on 110V AC power for most features (just like an average house). There are a few exceptions, like my diesel-fired water heater, but I rarely need to use that because there is also an electric water heater on board. 

I can survive for about 1.5 days living on the bus before its batteries start to have an intense craving for electricity. That's fine when I'm driving hundreds of miles a day because the batteries can charge off the engine's alternator, but when I'm parked, that means I need to either plug into an AC outlet, or run my diesel generator. The generator has to run for about eight hours to charge the batteries fully! I also need to be plugged in or running the generator in order to run the air conditioning. 

The problem with running the generator for eight hours every 1.5 days is three fold: 

1) It will automatically kick on whenever the batteries are getting low and sometimes that's when I'm trying to sleep, or I'm parked in a location where noise is not a good thing or where the exhaust would not be appreciated (this is mainly an issue when I park the bus somewhere for weeks at a time while I fly outside the country and really limits where I can park the bus). 

2) It costs $$ to run the generator for that long, so in many cases, I might as well pay for a parking spot in an RV park instead. It also works best when plugged into a 50amp 220V AC outlet (the kind of outlet your home clothes dryer might be plugged into) and many more remote places don't have that kind of setup. 

3) I have to change the oil in the generator after every 100 hours it runs and the fuel filter every 200 hours. The process is really easy, but it can be a pain in the butt when you don't feel like doing it. There's also the issue of having to dispose of the used oil and keeping a supply of fresh oil and filters on board.

I have dozens of stories about my buses thirst for electricity... here are just two... I could go on for days with more of them: 

1) I parked in the loading dock at a friend Kevin's photography studio. My generator auto-started when my batteries got low while its exhaust was pointed directly at my friend's loading dock door... it was inches from the door. At the time, I was off doing errands in my Jeep far away from the studio. I quickly received a phone call complaining of diesel fumes filling the photo studio. I was luck enough to have not locked the storage bay doors under the bus, so I could tell my friend how to turn off the generator. He would have had to wait an hour or two for me to return to the bus if I had locked that door. 

2) I parked the bus in the private RV park that is behind the dealer where I purchased the bus in Florida. After making sure that the bus was plugged into their AC "shore power", I set the air conditioners to make sure the interior would not bake in the hot Florida sun while I flew out of the country for a few weeks. A day or so after I left, the lawn crew stopped by to mow the grass and bumped my electrical cord. It didn't fall completely out of the outlet, but it was pulled enough so that the bus was no longer receiving any electricity. It hadn't occurred to me that I might want to have my generator auto-start feature turned on while the bus is plugged into an electrical source. Well, I'm sure it only took 3-4 days for my jam-packed residential-sized freezer to defrost. The once frozen water in the ice maker at the top of the freezer then trickled through all the defrosted meats, vegetables and sauces that were once frozen and soaked all of those juices into the carpet of my kitchen/living room. Then, all of that got cooked for a few weeks in the Florida sun in a sealed up bus just waiting for my return. I was lucky that a professional carpet cleaning and a full week's worth of airing out with huge fans was enough to get rid of the smell. Needless to say, the only time I turn off that generator auto-start feature is when I'm changing the oil in the generator. 

The above stories were learning experiences and I have since gotten used to living with the electrical limitations of my bus. Having said that, I'm always thinking about my bus's need for electrical power and it is the biggest limiting factor in how I live my mobile lifestyle.

2) Size

My current motorcoach is 40' long, 102" inches wide and just under 12.5' tall. That's a huge rig (although they make them five feet longer!). I don't mind driving something that big... in fact, I every much enjoy it. 

The problem comes when I want to find a parking space for the rig. There are many campgrounds that can't handle a rig of my size (especially in state parks). My length can also be a handicap when attempting to pull into a RV sewage dump site that involves tight turns. The ground clearance isn't all that high either, which causes some problems when entering and exiting many parking lots that have rather sudden changes in elevation (scrape). It's also not unusual to encounter low trees in areas where I might want to park. 

I've even encountered parts of Route 66 where the width of the bus caused it to be touching both the road's center line and edge line at the same time! I've been doing fine dealing with these issues and it wouldn't get me to want a different rig all by itself... it's mainly when combined with the other reasons that it comes into the mix. 

3) Always Tempted

My rig is just over ten years old, which is no problem in itself, being a bus designed for commercial passenger service. A bus is designed to be driven for over one million miles before it's considered "old" (mine has only 150K miles on it, which isn't much for a commercial chassis). The problem is that there are always newer, fancier buses to be tempted by. That means I could always upgrade to one that has even more space in it, has a 42" drop down TV in the living room and all sorts of other temptations (but would cost tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars more than my current rig). A brand new coach costs between $1.4 and 2.5 million, which is way too rich for my blood, but there are also a lot really nice buses within my price range. 

Having said all that, my current bus was the best I could have done with having the knowledge I had at the time I made the purchase and it has served me well. After having lived in a 340 square foot space for over three years, I've learned that I might be able to have a lot more freedom and convenience if I was just willing to give up some of that square footage... and after inspecting the contents of every cabinet and living space, I've found that it should be quite easy to get along with less space. 

Why A Vintage Motorcoach?

So, why in the world would I even think of "downgrading" to a much smaller rig that is around sixty years old? Here's why:

1) Electrical Freedom

Most modern rigs are designed to be driving from one RV park to the next and are more concerned with how many slide out rooms they can incorporate into the living space than how long a person can last without plugging into an electrical source. I want a rig that is designed from scratch to not rely on 110V AC power! It would be too expensive and impractical to retrofit my current bus to work with less electrical power, so I started to look at alternatives. Here's my thoughts on my ideal electrical system:

No Propane: Most RVs that are not "all electric" end up using propane to power the refrigerator, water heater, cooktop and many other systems. The problem with propane is that it's a very flammable substance that is heaver than air, which means any leak and it will tend to collect  in the living space and could be ignited by any spark that it comes in contact with. It is also just another fuel I'd have to keep track of and replenish. I want to use diesel instead of propane because it is already required for the engine (gas engines just don't have the torque and tend to get very hot when asked to push a heavy rig up a mountain) and therefore I can have a single, easy to find source of energy. Propane appliances also cause condensation to form on the windows of an RV due to their open flame. A diesel-fired appliances doesn't use an exposed flame, in fact, a diesel cooktop resembles the glass-topped ceramic cooktops you see in many kitchens. A diesel-fired heater has many advantages, such as being able to pre-heat the RV's engine in cold weather and being able to steal heat from the engine's cooling system after a long drive. I'd also have an electric water heater and electric heaters in my next rig for use when I'm plugged into the shore power at an RV park. 

Solar As Primary Electrical: My current rig depends on one of three things to get electrical power: 1) an external AC power source (also known as shore power), 2) my diesel generator, which is a huge four cylinder unit that could easily power your car, 3) the alternator that is run off the RVs engine. The ever bigger problem is that the batteries won't reach a full charge until they've been getting power from one of those sources for a full eight hours and that has to happen every 1.5 days. 

I plan to setup my new rig with lots of solar panels on the roof (510 watts minimum and possibly double that) and a huge bank of batteries (550-1000 amp hours worth). This is very similar to how a company called EarthRoamer sets up their vehicles. The EarthRoamer gets enough energy from solar to run it's refrigerator and lighting indefinitely. My system would be even more robust since I'd have more electrical needs, but it would be loosely-based on how an EarthRoamer is setup. I considered living on an EarthRoamer, but decided that I wanted more space and didn't feel like driving what for all practical purposes is a huge pickup truck. 

My current bus has a residential side-by-side fridge/freezer with ice maker, which is not the most efficient unit on the road. In my new rig, I'd end up with a smaller unit that can be run off either 100V AC (for when I'm plugged in at an RV park) or 12V DC direct from my battery bank. Those batteries would be charged using the engine's alternator when I'm driving or from solar when the sun in out. With that setup, I could park my rig indefinitely anywhere that is not in the shade and fly off without many worries.

High Efficiency Gear: I plan to use 100% LED lighting because LEDs last a long time before any "bulbs" need to be replaced and it only sips power (my current rigs lighting uses 10x+ the power for its lighting). With a refrigerator that can run directly off 12V DC and lighting that does the same, I can end up with an inverter (the thing that converts 12V DC battery power to standard household 110V AC power) that is much smaller than my current setup and therefore would be much less power hungry. I even have a power brink for my laptop that can run directly off 12V DC. With that setup, I should be able to leave the inverter turned off most of the time to save power and avoid the slight buzzing sound they usually produce.

Generator As Backup: I will most likely install a small generator in my new rig for those times when I park in the shade and I might not be getting enough juice from solar or when I need to use a lot of air conditioning. This would be much smaller than my current generator so it would take a lot less fuel to operate. I'd hope to only use it when I need to run air conditioning for more than a few hours a day.

With the above setup, I should be able to last indefinitely without running the generator or plugging into AC power... except when I need run the air conditioning all day long. The new rig would also have much better ventilation which would help to lessen the number of days I'd need to rely on air conditioning.

2) Quality

I'm very picky when it comes to quality. I lived in a custom-built home before I started living on a bus and I'm used to many luxuries that I'd rather not have to do without. I like the idea of living around real wood, commercial-quality metal, porcelain (not plastic), stone and leather. Those are materials that I primarily find in a bus conversion and rarely find in a normal RV (with a few rare exceptions). These are also the materials that they used back in the 1940's and would look at home in a wrapper that was designed at that time. 

I also want a vehicle that is stable on the road (with no fear of shaking or swerving from semi trucks passing at high speed, etc). I want it to be powerful enough to climb a mountain pass without having to get in the slow lane. That's exactly what a commercial bus is designed for. They're also designed to be run for more miles than most people can imagine (and it's why there are many 1940's buses that are still on the road living a second life as a motorhome). 

After acquiring a vintage bus, I would update its chassis with a modern electronically controlled turbo diesel engine, modern six speed automatic transmission, modern brakes, power steering, etc. In essence, the systems on the bus would all be newer than what is found on my current rig. These are all commercial-quality systems that are make for a very stable and comfortable ride. 

2) Style

I'm very selective when it comes to style. I absolutely love the curved look of buses from the 1940's. I plan to have a custom interior installed into the vintage bus that would look like it came straight out of the 1940's or 1950's. I plan to use a person who is used to restoring vintage trailers to create the interior. The image above is an example of his work. I would have one done that is more a combination of art deco, 1950's streamline design with a slight ultra-modern twist. The closest I have seen in another RV is the T@B XL. 

4) Cost

My current rig gets between 6-8 MPG. I've averaged 6.85 over the last few months. I just talked to Jay Leno's mechanic, who owns a rig setup mechanically almost exactly like the one I'd create and he gets 13MPG! ...and that's when he's pulling a big trailer that contains a race car. He said the bus's top speed is 120 MPH! You can find more about his bus in the following four videos: #1-Intro, #2-Engine, #3-Test Drive, #4-Engine Wiring. I might be able to install a more modern engine than what he used and get even better results. 

With a smaller sized rig, I don't need as many air conditioning units to keep it cool and could more easily survive off a 30 amp 110V AC connection when visiting an RV park instead of the 50 amp 220V AC connection my current rig requires. I can also park in spots that have lower trees (since the rig would be no where near as tall) and need six feet less length of a parking spot... those smaller, lower powered spots are much easier to find and often cost less.

Large vehicles are in general not collectable. Unlike a 1957 Chevy which might go for between $18-60K. A vintage bus can be obtained for somewhere between free and $10K for one that needs to be re-powered and converted into an RV to $35K for one that is already an RV and is working fine. I'd want one that is much more up to date, upgraded and stylish than most of the units on the market today, but even with a custom conversion by real professionals, it will still cost less than my current rig. It has the potential of costing half as much of my current bus, but I doubt I'll get away with that because I'll want too many custom upgrades. 

5) Customized to My Needs

Ever inch of the vintage bus would be customized to my exact needs and desires. That means I'd have things like a hatch in the interior that would allow me easy access to the roof for shooting and many more unusual features to make it my own. Most modern motorhomes manufacturers are concentrating on more and more slide out rooms and fancier systems without really raising the quality of their product. I don't want slide out rooms and can't stand the style or quality of most motorhomes (that's what caused me to buy a bus instead the first time around... there is zero compromise in quality on a bus).

 

6) Size

The vintage bus is six feet shorter in length, six inches skinner in width and almost two feet shorter in height. It also has a lot more ground clearance. That will allow me to park in a much wider variety of places and will not have me worrying about low trees. Having only two axels will cut down on my tollbooth charges and with such a short wheelbase, I should be able to run circles around my current bus.

7) Zero Temptation

With a vintage bus setup in such a way that does not require much external electrical power, is small enough to easily get around and has an interior that is custom crafted to my exact needs and style, I'll be at the top of the game with no upgrade path tempting me. You might think I'd be tempted by bigger rigs, but I've found that I don't use all the space in my current bus and I can easily work it out so I have most of the modern systems that would tempt me into a rig that is newer than my current one. 

8) It Should Get Attention

I've had some pretty good luck getting news coverage when traveling the country via my current bus. But just imagine how easy it should be to get TV appearances and other coverage when I'm traveling in a restored 1940's bus! I also plan to pull a 1956 or 1957 four door station wagon behind the bus... it should be quite a duo. That's the marketing/business reason for the change. 

The Genesis of the Idea

If you're wondering how I came up with the idea of a vintage bus/car combo, then here's how it happened: 1) I saw the movie RV starring Robin Williams which featured the red/white 1947 Flxible Clipper that is shown at the top of this page. I absolutely loved that bus, but didn't think of actually living on one because I figured that they would be as collectable as other classic cars and therefore cost millions. 2) One day I was watching the Speed channel on cable TV and they had a show about the Barrett Jackson auction where I saw a nicely restored Flxible bus similar to the one used in the movie go up on the auction block. It had been restored and looked amazing. That bus sold for less than half of what I paid for my current bus! That's when the seed was planted in my head. That exact same bus went back up for auction this month and I ended up bidding on it. I didn't bid high enough to win the auction though because I refused to overbid, knowing what kind of modifications the bus would need to make it fulfill my needs.

Since then, I've been doing a tremendous amount of research on the possibility of living on a vintage bus. I've looked into alternative bus models, attended vintage bus rallies, found diesel mechanics who have re-powered dozens of these buses, created a database of all the buses I know of on the market (I even located the actual bus used in the movie RV) and much more. Now it's time to buy a bus and get started having it restored and converted into an RV. 

My goal is to start living on a vintage bus by June 17th (my birthday) 2010. That might seem like a long time, but restoring and converting a bus into a modern RV is not unlike building a home, which takes time. There's a good chance it will take longer than a year, but I need a date to shoot for. 

I will continue to live on my current bus until the vintage bus project progresses enough where I can estimate a realistic date of completion. At that time I'll consider putting my current rig up for sale. If it sells before the project is complete, then I'll most likely take some time out to explore some international destinations until it's ready for me to move in.

Visit the Vintage Bus Identification Guide if you'd like to know more about the differences between the various versions of the Flxible Clipper body style.

2010/02 Project Update

Comments

[Cherie]

It's been exciting to witness you get this far with the project.. you're going to have one fantastic amazing duo there when you're done! Looking forward to seeing the progression.

[Mark F.]

Sounds like a really awesome project Ben. Good luck and may you have many happy miles with the new home.

Mark

[Khazar]

Hi buddy,
Nice bus...
I'm Moeen's friend. He just sent me the link of ur page... I donno :-? but I think you are Be sheddat Daghoon :-?
in Farsi " Be Sheddat Daghoon means extremely awesome ;)
Well done...

[Chris Dunphy]

Your excitement on this project is contagious. A vintage bus is so perfectly YOU. I am even starting to fantasize about bus living... :-)

I can't wait to see what you come up with, and you can count on me for solar / electric help and advice!

- Chris

[Andy Ptak]

I've thought about living in my RV and becoming a bit of a Gypsy, but don't you need some kind of fixed address?

How do you get your mail - credit card bills, insurance, taxes etc., etc? Not everything is electronic.

Do you have Internet satellite? If so, which one? Thanks

[Scott]

Ben,
If your still interested I know of a 1954 flxible for sale. I tried to email you a photo, but it came back. Email me if your intrested.

[Route66News]

That's a really cool project, and you've got the right balance of logic and emotion that's persuasive. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of bus you end up with and how it will work for you.

[Ben Willmore]

Scott, I don't know how to e-mail you since you seem to be posting here anonymously. I'm mainly looking for a 1957+ flxible since they changed the suspension at that point... it's a bus known as the starliner.

I'd still like to know about the coach you mentioned, just in case I don't end up with a starliner... hopefully it's a visicoach.

-Ben

[Scott]

Sorry Ben, scottr@horrocks.com

[Gary Sebastian]

Hey Ben, You called me yesterday about the 1960 Starliner I bought recently. I enjoyed the conversation and I look forward to hearing more about your quest and travels. The guy I bought my Flxible from has two Greyhound Silversides. I know he offered them for sale at one time, you might check back with him. If you need contact info, let me know. Gary

[Ben Willmore]

Hey Gary,

I talked to him about the silversides... that's my second choice after a clipper style bus. It's much more practical with much more storage and living space, but it doesn't have the personality of a clipper.

-Ben

[Mike Rodriguez]

Really cool-sounding project and adventure, Ben. I look forward to following the progress over the coming months.

BTW, thanks for a great seminar in Seattle last Saturday (6/12). I learned a couple new tricks that are going to be really helpful in some upcoming restorations. Not to mention, it's just darn fun going to an all-day Photoshop seminar...

Mike

[johann klaassen]

What a great seminar! I really enjoyed your images. I
love your vision on the vintage
car-bus combo. Thanks again,
Johann Klaassen..klaassimages.com

[Scott Vassar Williams]

Ben,

If you are still looking for a vintage bus, I know of a 1944 Aerocoach bus (black & silver exterior) that is reported to have belonged to Howard Hughes. It's in my town here in Florida. I've seen it and it's pretty cool on the outside but needs a new interior. It has a lot of unusual custom features, too.

Let me know if you want me to pass along contact info or a photo of the bus.

Scott

[Ben Willmore]

Hey Scott,

I know about the Aerocoach you're talking about. It wasn't owned by Howard Hughes, which is why it is now up for sale and the previous owner is in jail. The current owners were asking waaaaay tooo much for the bus because they put so much effort into restoring it (when they thought it was Howard Hughes bus) and need to get some of that $$ back out of the project. If they were to lower their price to less than 1/4 of what they've been asking, then I'd consider it... otherwise, it's just waaaay overpriced compared to any other bus on the market (but the exterior is in great shape).

-Ben

[Trey Ratcliff]

Awesome - you are insane and I admire that.

[Robert]

Love it!

Doing the same, on a smaller scale.

1963 Grumman RV conversion...

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7404/img001440723771.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2710/img001218076072.jpg

[john]

Are you gonna be driving the new or old bus to hartford, september?

[Ben Willmore]

If it's Sept of 2010, then there's a chance I'd be driving the vintage bus.

[john]

na, i was thinking about next month, but what the heck, as long as You are there. looking forward to the class. see ya then.

[StephenWhalen]

Hey Ben;
....I'm an old bus freak too...love em. Would love to hear from someone who knows where the 1944 Areocoach is in Florida. I live in Sarasota........
stephenwhalen@verizon.net

[Stephen Bahen]

If you ever need a place to park / plug-in in Central Virginia, let me now. Looking forward to your progress with the old bus.

[Blake]

Ben,
Holey crap!
I just picked up my dream just a few days before you(October 16).A 1949 Flxible Clipper. She's no where near the shape of yours. She needs a ton of work but...that's why I did it. I won't be living in it or traveling as much as you but my plan is to restore and convert. Classic outside and tricked out inside.
I would love to chat via email with you if you have the time. I have been looking at re-powering my bus as well.
All the best!!

[Lyn Carlin]

Ben, I once lived in the hull of a Sampan for 3 months with six others. We had 20 sq. feet of space and it rocked and moved constantly as we sailed from Australia through the Indonesian Islands. Once, we ran out of water off Komodo Island and lucky for me one of the boys was brave enough to venture 1 mile into remote jungle with water containers to find water. No toilet, no radio, no hot water, but it was an adventure. An adventure I was after and an adventure I got. So why don't you drive that Bus over to Australia, plenty to see here in the Outback and while your here, give us some more of those Seminars !!!

[Stephen Combs]

Ben, I can fully understand your wanting to do something better! My wife and I spent years looking @ motorhomes of various types, from Class C homes up to and including $600K 35-40 foot motorhomes and we finally gave up! Bought a '95 Jayco trailer which we leave @ a campground in Myrtle Beach, SC and have our '98 'pop-up' camper which we pull with a Nissan Frontier P/U. I was amazed @ how crappy even $1.5-2.5MM Prevost RV's were... Just wasn't there for us! I MAY do your bit (I've always liked Flxible buses and just might do the conversion myself!). I'll continue to follow your journey. Hope it all goes well!